2018年7月7日，aelf创始人，北京好扑信息科技有限公司创始人兼CEO马昊伯做客布洛克科技时点对话栏目第106期，分享了自己丰富的投资、创业经历以及创立aelf初衷和愿景，从技术角度详细讲解了多级侧链技术，并对以太坊的拥堵问题表达了自己的一些见解。
On 7 July 2018, No. 106, founder of aelf, founder of the Beijing Sodom Information Technology Ltd. and founder of the CEOMAPO Brock Science Time Dialogue, shared its rich investment, entrepreneurial experience and original intentions and vision for the creation of aelf, provided a detailed technical description of multi-layered technologies and expressed some of its views on the issue of Ether's congestion.
一
“区块链的核心魅力在于用一个网络去替代实体化的公司”
时艳强：昊伯总，您进入区块链领域算是比较早的，当初是怎样接触到区块链的?区块链的哪些魅力吸引了您?围绕区块链，您做过很多次创业，可以介绍一下您的创业经历以及创立aelf的灵感来源。
Mr. Hubbard, how did you get into the block chain earlier? What charms of the block chain attract you? You have done a lot of business around the block chain to describe your entrepreneurial experience and the inspiration for creating aelf.
马昊伯：我在13年刚毕业时进入到区块链行业，当时通过新闻了解到比特币挺好并且进行投资，在交易所购买了一些比特币，后来自己也研究了一些其他的Token，比如当时很火的莱特币、狗狗币等，那个时候还有各种各样的币NXT、Ripple等。当时也研究如何挖矿并买了一些显卡GPU做矿机来挖过各种数字货币。我记得当时一天的时间就把所有的币都挖出来转POS，也是很好玩的尝试。当时莱特币和狗狗币刚出来的时候，我也挖了一段时间。
MAG: When I graduated from the block chain business in 13 years, I learned on the news that bitcoins were good and invested, bought some bitcoins on the exchange, and then studied some other Tokens, such as the hot Leitcoons, dogcoins, and a variety of coins, NXT, Ripple, and so on. I also worked on how to dig mines and buy some visible GPU machines to dig up all kinds of digital money.
我认为区块链的魅力是它在用网络去替代实体化的公司做事情，比如Ripple的本质是替代中心化的支付公司，而且整个过程是透明和自动化的。我认为区块链就是在去除中介，在去中介的过程中可以更大的提升效率。我们有时觉得比特币挖矿消耗了大量的电力，浪费了很多资源。但反过想同样做转账、储值业务的银行系统，它整个系统的开销比比特币大得多，比如在黄浦江边上会看到很多的银行，他们日常的开销特别大，有大量的人工成本、IT系统的运维成本、运钞车的成本等等，最后会发现原来一个网络就可以自动化的做这些事情，而且成本相对来说比较低。
I think the charm of the block chain is that it does things with a network to replace a real company, such as a central payment company, and the whole process is transparent and automated. I think the block chain is about removing intermediaries, making them more efficient. We sometimes feel that bitcoin digs consumes a lot of electricity and waste a lot of resources. But instead of a banking system that does the same transfer, storage, the entire system spends much more than bitcoin, for example, at the edge of the Huangpo River, they see a lot of banks, they spend a lot of money on a day-to-day basis, they have a lot of manual costs, IT system support costs, money truck costs, and so on, they end up finding that a network can automate these things, and the costs are relatively low.
2013年底我用区块链写了一些类似于支付系统的东西，14年我在北京，当时小蚁的发起人来找我去做他们的CTO，那个时候对区块链来说各种各样的币比较多，我觉得应该围绕着一些基础设施来做。当时做比特币支付公司很多，比如国外有家公司叫Bitpay，那时我已经做了一套支付网关系统，所以我把小蚁的发起人拉到一起做了GemPay这家公司，做比特币支付的业务，基于这个业务又做了一个中心化的钱包，是在IOS和安卓上都可以用的软件。现在大家看到各种各样的钱包，但那个时候手机钱包真的特别少，当时我们做出来的时候OKLINK刚刚开始做钱包，还有国内做钱包的比如HaoBTC是币信的前身，所以我们是很早引入钱包的概念， 14年的时候我们就能在微信群里发比特币和元宝币的红包。14、15年行业低迷， VC也看不懂行情，我们上一家公司融资额有限，业务难以支撑，所以当时元宝网邓迪来找我们聊公司合并，于是我帮着老邓去搞allcoin交易所平台，当时我带着整个团队从无到有花了一个多月的时间写了一套交易所，直到现在那个交易所还在运行。
At the end of 2013, I wrote something similar to a payment system in the block chain, when I was in Beijing, when I was approached by an ant sponsor to do their CTO, which was a variety of coins for the block chain, and I thought it should be around some infrastructure. There were a lot of bitcoin payment companies, like a foreign company called Bitpay, when I made a payment gateway system, so I pulled an an ant sponsor into a Gempay company, did a bitco-paying business, made a central wallet based on this business, which was available on IOS and Andre. Now you see a variety of wallets, but at that time there were really very few mobile wallets, which we didn't understand at the time when we made it, which we had a company like HaoBTC, which was the predecessor of the currency, so we introduced the concept of an early wallet, and in 14 years we were able to hand out a bag of bitcoats and coins, which I've spent the entire exchange's time with.
16年底， 当时FBG的创始人周硕基在看有关Token投资的项目，对于我们来说Token行为很常见，比如历史久远的BTS的故事，BM他搞PTS，PTS搞完了又搞了一个AGS，最后拿着AGS再去换BTS，也就BM才能每次都搞出一些创新的玩法。以太坊在当时也是众筹行为，包括比较早期的一个项目叫NXT也是一种众筹。这个期间我们看了大量的项目和白皮书，而事情发展的速度超乎我们的想象，吸引的资金规模也翻了很多倍。在这个过程中我们发现现有的区块链网络支撑不了很大的业务量，现有的底层区块链系统都会存在三个问题，一是性能太差，二是资源不隔离，三是治理有问题。
At the end of 16th year, when FBG’s founder, Chuge, was looking at projects related to Token’s investments, it was common for us to see token’s behavior, such as the story of the long-standing BTS, BM’s PTS, PTS, another AGS, and finally AGS, to replace BTS with BTS, and BM’s innovative ways of playing it every time. At that time, Ether was also popular, including an earlier project called NXT, which was also popular. During this period we saw a lot of projects and white papers, and things went faster than we thought, and attracted a lot of money. In this process, we found that the existing network of block chains could not sustain much business, and that there were three problems in the existing bottom chain system, one too bad for sex, two for resources, and three for governance.
在性能方面比如比特币的TPS峰值大概只有九笔每秒，这个性能相对于传统的互联网来说实在是太低了，以太坊可能只有二十几的TPS，性能也是很低的，这是相当大的问题。另一方面是我们所谓的资源隔离网上现有的区块链网络都是把所有的各种类型的交易都放到一条区块链上来处理，比如说以太坊的养猫和去中心化交易所都放在一条链上，当大家都去养猫的时候网络就会阻塞，还有前两天Fcoin的空投上币，在这个过程中有大量的以太坊交易发起把整个以太坊网络阻塞了，以太坊上其他的应用比如去中心化交易所都会受到特别严重的影响。所以我们觉得去中心化应用之间相互的影响是一个很大的问题，急需解决。另外一方面我们发现区块链网络不属于任何公司或个人，这种情况下谁能拥有更新代码的权利是一个很大的问题，这个问题是决定了一个区块链网络的发展方向，所以区块链网络的治理也是一个很大的问题。当年DAO事件出来的时候，Vitalik说我们需要回滚，但社区里的人说不要回滚，因为code is law事情是按照写好的规则发生的，那就不应该回滚。双方出现了分歧之后，以太坊基金会提交了回滚代码，但是另外一部分社区分叉了出来做了ETC网络。我觉得任何一个东西如果初期分裂对整个业务的发展会有很大影响，而且那个时候以太坊上还没有太多ERC20，如果搞分叉一个ERC20的合约在原有的以太坊网络和新的ETC网络上都有，那么整个世界就会变得很混乱。
In terms of performance, the TPS peak of Bitcoin, for example, is probably only nine seconds away from the traditional Internet, and it's quite a problem that in the process there may be only 20 TPSs in the Pacific, which are very low. On the other hand, the network of blocks that we call the resource-segregated Internet is being dealt with by all types of transactions in a chain. So we think that the interaction between the centralization applications is a big problem, and it is urgent to solve it. On the other hand, we find that the network of ETs does not belong to any company or individual, and that the right to update the code is a big problem, and the problem that determines the development of a network is too much, so the network is too much to govern.
所以我们aelf希望能够好好的解决这三个问题，比如性能问题我们引入并行计算，我们是第一个使用服务器级别的技术去进行单一节点的编程，使用高性能的数据库redis，也用了比较好的分布式框架比如Akka.net等去做很好的编程，这样带来了很大的性能提升，我们的交易都可以并行化的运行，而且每一笔交易的验证不是只在一台服务器上进行，比如有一万笔交易可能均匀的分布在一个服务器集群上进行快速的验证，这是我们性能提升的一个手段。资源隔离方面我们引入了多级侧链机制，让每一条链都只处理一件事情，比如养猫的链专门有一条，去中心化交易所的链专门有一条，这样的话即使养猫那条链阻塞了，也不会影响到中心化交易所的逻辑。
So we aelf hopes to be able to solve these three problems well, for example, by introducing parallel calculations, which we are the first to use server-level technology for single nodes programming, using high-performance databases, redis, and using better distributional frameworks, such as Akka.net, which has led to great performance enhancement, parallelization of our transactions, and verification of each transaction not only on a server, for example, 10,000 transactions that may be evenly distributed on a server cluster, which is a means of enhancing our performance. In terms of resource segregation, we have introduced multi-level side chains that allow each chain to deal with only one thing, such as a cat chain with one, and a chain to a central exchange with one, so that even if the cat chain is blocked, it will not affect the logic of a central exchange.
我再补充一下性能问题，现有的性能问题解决方案是做Sharding，大家可能觉得Sharding很厉害，但它本质上就是做分区，但核心的问题是，在原有的数据库领域里面我们是不会把所有的数据放到一张表里，再去做Sharding这样，我们首先应该从业务逻辑出发把它们分开，比如说新浪微博不会把微博数据、用户的账单数据还有评论数据都放在同一张表里再做分表，肯定是微博、评论数据、订单数据各有自己的一张表各自分别做Sharding。关于治理结构的问题我们觉得一个网络如果要治理的好，本质上要能代表用户的利益，而用户的利益从哪里直接体现?很简单的说持有Token的用户们最关心网络的价值，所以我们希望建立一个Token持有人的代议制度，让他们选举出委员，用委员会进行比较好的治理，当有一些重大问题我们可能还会进行所有持币人的投票表决。
I would like to add to the question of performance that the solution to the existing performance problem is to do Shalding, which may be considered powerful, but it is essentially to be a partition, but the central question is that in the original database area we do not put all the data in a table, and then to do it, we should start by separating them from business logic, for example, by saying that New Wave Weibo does not put microblogs, user bill data and comment data in the same table and then sort them out in the same table. It is certainly microblogging, commenting on data, and order data, each of which has its own form. We think that a network, if it is to be good governance, is essentially representative of the user's interests, and where the user's interests are directly reflected. It is simple to say that users with Token are most concerned about the value of the network, so we want to create a proxy system for the Token holders, so that they can elect members, use the Commission for better governance, and when there are some important issues that we might vote on all the currencyholders.
二
“项目开始之初，也曾因为代码提交数较少而受质疑”
时艳强：aelf主要深耕底层公链技术，而目前这一技术还存在很多问题，开发难度大，在aelf开发过程中遇到过哪些瓶颈?又是如何解决的?可以讲一下aelf开发过程中的一些难忘故事。
Aelf is a major deep-cultivating bottom-chain technology, and there are many problems with this technology, which is difficult to develop, and what bottlenecks have been encountered in the development of aelf? How can it be solved?
马昊伯：我们aelf选用的都是比较稳定的技术，底层公链最大的问题是如何工程化，就是用工程师的思维去把系统做好。我们现在看到的区块链底层存在的一些问题是他们并没有很好的用软件工程的思维去做，所以架构肯定做的不太好。而我们花了很大的精力做了架构方面的设计，刚开始的时候整个社区对我们的质疑是你的团队融了钱，为什么没有代码提交?其实那个时候我们在做大量的架构的设计，比如怎样分层，怎样模块化、怎么样解耦合等，这些是很重要的事情。但因为首先这些事情不能在代码体现上，其次有很多的评级机构不看项目的周期只看代码提交数，所以那时候整个社区的压力比较大。随着我们思路的清晰，开发进度越来越好，代码提交数也上来了，这时外界才觉得我们是真正的在做实际的事情。
Maeubert: We chose to use relatively stable technology, and the biggest problem with the bottom public chain was how to work, using engineers' thinking to do the system. Some of the problems we see at the bottom of the block chain are that they don't do well with software engineering thinking, so the architecture is certainly not very good. And we put a lot of effort into architecture design, and the whole community started questioning our team for money, and there was no code submission. These are important things when we were doing a lot of architecture design, like how to stratification, how to modularize, how to integrate. But because first of these things cannot be coded, and then a lot of rating agencies don't look at the project cycle just at the number of code submissions, then the pressure of the whole community is bigger. As we get clear, the process of development is getting better and the number of code submissions is coming up, and it is only then that the outside world thinks that we are actually doing real things.
在开发过程中我们发现，并行化计算序列化反序列化方面的性能优化是很重要的事情，如何把交易分组也是比较重要的事情。我们现在用原数据标记的算法把不同的交易分到并行化可执行的组里，再把这个交易分发出去。我们在并行化执行方面花了很多的精力，比如通过跟一些并行化实验室的教授交流，去解决并行化执行的问题。另外一个难点是底层存储的数据结构的设计，这块内容我们也经历了几个版本，因为区块链本质上是日志型的，如果在数据执行过程中有一个action执行挂了，会产生错误，这时可能会涉及到一个回滚操作或者从之前哪一个时间点再次进行运算，所以说底层数据结构也是一个重要的事情。我们是在集群上去部署aelf，当集群跑起来之后Akka的参数调优很重要，而在并行化计算的时候去做这个debug工作是需要对日志进行很好的分析，开始的时候我们发现并行化执行得没有那么好，所以在这个过程中去debug和找具体的原因。在多个集群的情况下，我们会看交易的执行是不是把每台服务器的CPU都压满，再去找性能的瓶颈在哪里，所以我们是在性能调优上花费的精力比较多。
In the process of development, we found that it was important to optimize performance in parallel computing counter-sequence, and that it was important to group the transactions. We now use the original data tag algorithm to divide the different transactions into parallel implementable groups, and then distribute them. We spend a lot of effort in parallel implementation, for example, by communicating with professors in parallel laboratories, to solve the problems of parallel execution. Another difficulty is the design of data structures that are stored at the bottom, which we have experienced in several versions, because they are essentially log-type, and if there is an action that is hanging up in the data implementation process, there is a mistake that may involve a rollback operation or another time frame from before, so we're going to debug and find specific reasons in the process. In many clusters, we're going to deploy an alf, it's important to fine-tune Akka's parameters after the cluster, and we're going to do this debuug work at the parallel calculation, and we're going to find more of the power of the CP, and we're going to find more of the CP.
三
“我希望aelf是属于大家的，所有的代码都是开源的，所有的网络都是开放的”
时艳强：区块链应用落地难，是公认的问题。aelf希望创造一个区块链世界的“Linux生态”，“Linux生态”是怎样的一个生态?您曾公开表示，aelf在2019年将会一季度实现大规模商用，就目前的研发进度来看，实现这一目标有多大的把握?
Aelf wants to create a world of block chains & & & & & rdquao; & & & & & & & ; & & & & & & ; what kind of ecology? You have publicly stated that aelf will achieve large-scale commercialization in the first quarter of 2019, and how sure is this possible in terms of current R & D progress?
马昊伯：我们希望去打造一个很开放的环境，初期的时候可能是我们自己在贡献代码，但是当这个代码真正有价值的时候，会看到Linux不仅是几个做Linux的公司在做，它其实有一些大的厂商，包括微软、谷歌，他们都在commit代码。我希望aelf是属于大家的，因为所有代码都是开源的，整个网络也都是开放的。我希望我们好扑只是aelf生态中的一家公司，目前好扑在为aelf提供大量支持，后来会有更多的公司进来支持aelf的发展。我们希望aelf网络在主网上线的时候能够满足一些商业需求，因为我们现在看到大部分的公链的性能又不好，作为一个商用的主体来讲很难去接受卖着卖着机票网络就阻塞了，用户登机的时候，机票过不了，这个事情是很难忍的;或者去中心化交易所，用户挂了一个单想撤单却怎么也撤不掉，这个事情对于用户一定是接受不了的，所以我认为这样的性能是无法商用的。我们希望做出底层的性能至少达到大家可以接受的程度，而且自己的业务不会被别人的业务影响，实现资源隔离，这是我们觉得达到商用的一些条件。我并不觉得在2019年会有大量成熟的、商用的Dapp出现，因为区块链出现的时间也并不长，在一个漫长的发展过程中是要一点一点迭代，但是我们希望我们能够把底层这块做得好一些。
Maeubert: We want to create a very open environment, initially we may be contributing to the code ourselves, but when the code is really valuable, we see Linux doing more than just a few Linux companies, and it actually has a number of big manufacturers, including Microsoft, Google, all of them in the code. I hope that aelf belongs to you, because all the codes are open, and the whole network is open. I hope that we're just one company in the aelf ecology, and that we're now doing a lot of support for aelf, and then more companies are coming in to support the development of aelf. We hope that the aelf network is able to meet some of the business needs when it is on the main line, because we see that most of the public chains are not good, that it is hard for us as a commercial subjects to accept, that it is hard for us to sell the ticket network, that it is difficult for users to board, that it is difficult for us, that it is not for us, that it is not for us, that it is not for us, that it is not for us, that it is not for us, and that it is not for us, that it is not for us, and that it is not for us, that it is, that it is not for us, that it is, that it is not for us, that it is not for us, and that it is not for us, and that it is not for us, that it is not for us, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is not for us, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is not for us, that it is, that it is not for us, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is not for us, that it is not for us, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is not for us, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is, that it is,
四
“我们的多级侧链实现方式耦合性很低，主链仅对侧链有收录工作”
时艳强：围绕底层公链技术的研发，目前市场上也有部分企业在做，比如墨客应用了子链技术，昨日的对话嘉宾程超提出了协同矩阵的概念，而aelf采用的是多级侧链，相对来看，两者有哪些区别和联系?多级侧链未来在技术上会做哪些方面的改进?
Fancy times: Some enterprises are currently working on the development of bottom-line public chain technologies, such as the ink-link technology, the concept of synergetic matrix was advanced by yesterday's dialogue guest process, while aelf uses multi-level side chains. What are the relative differences and linkages between the two? What are the future technological improvements in multi-level side chains?
马昊伯：目前主要精力在我们自身的研发上，所以并没有去关注您提到的这两个链，那我就简单的说一下我们自己的思路。我们的整个多级侧链实现方式耦合性很低，我们的主链只对侧链进行一个收录工作，也就是相当于主链是一个观察者，会观察到侧链发生的事情。比如我们有十条侧链，那么主链就会把这十条侧链的变化做Merkle Tree Root。每个区块链的状态变化是随着一个区块的高度变化而变化，主链收录各个侧链区块的哈希值，建立一个Merkle Tree，再把Merkle Tree存到主链上，这个事情就算完成了，这就是我们的收录工作。
Maruber: The main focus is on our own research and development, so we don't pay attention to the two chains to which you have referred. So let me just say our own thinking. Our entire multi-level side chain is being achieved with very low coupling, and our main chain is only doing a recording of the side chain, which is the equivalent of the main chain being an observer and seeing what happens in the side chain. For example, if we have 10 side chains, then the main chain is going to be Merkle Tre Root. The shape of each block is changing with the height of one block, the primary chain is taking the Hashi value of each side chain, building a Merkle Tree, and then storing Merkle Tre into the main chain, and that's what we're doing, and that's what we're doing.
在第三方的时候怎么用?比如我在侧链A上怎么证明侧链B上已经发生的事情?这时候就需要主链的Merkle Tree Root，侧链A就需要知道主链上的Merkle Tree Root，再通过侧链B上的Merkle Tree的证明，以这样的逻辑让A确认，的确有一些事情在B上发生，这笔交易的确出现在B上，A再去解析B上发生的交易，知道原来侧链B上发生的一些交易，A来进行一些处理。比如A是一个去中心化交易所，B是另外一条资产链，B上资产发生了转移则A上就能读到数据，我们是用这样的一种方式来做的。大家可能看到主链做了相当多的工作，为了降低主链的工作，我们可以去改变数据结构。主链侧链这是两级的，把任何一条侧链当做主链，侧链下面再接侧链，那上面的侧链其实已经变成了主链，那它也可以收录下面的侧链。这样的话最上层的主链只需要读取侧链已经收录的数据就可以了。
What do I do when I'm a third party? How do I prove on the side chain A that something has happened on the side chain B? That's when I need a Merkle Tree Root on the side chain, where the side chain A needs to know Merkle Tree Root on the main chain, and by proof of Merkle Tree on the side chain B, which makes it possible to read data in one way or another. You can see that there is a lot of work on the main chain, and we can change the structure of the data in order to lower the main chain. The main chain is a two-tiered one, and there's a chain on the side, and there's a chain on the side, and there's a chain on the side, and there's a chain on the other side, and there's a chain on the other side.
五
“去中心化的应用完全可以取代中介的作用”
时艳强：目前市场上Dapp大部分都不成熟，很难出现现象级的产品，那么，决定Dapp的瓶颈，应该是底层公链技术还是市场需求和应用场景，可以谈一下您的看法。Dapp和传统意义上的app有哪些区别?在公链的选择上有哪些要求?
In the current market, where the majority of Dapps are immature and difficult to produce phenomenon-based products, the bottlenecks in determining Dapp should be bottom-chain technology or market demand and application. What are the differences between Dapp and traditional apps? What are the requirements in the choice of the public chain?
马昊伯：各行各业都可以用区块链技术，有很多传统的业务，比如像淘宝、滴滴打车或者支付系统，它其实就是一个中介，我们去中心化的应用完全可以去取代中介的作用;Dapp它的意义在于说做的这个事情可能足够简单并且商业模式足够简单，但是它的运行是特别透明的。比如像淘宝其实是在赚取买家和卖家中间的信息不对称的钱，去赚中间的利润。但是淘宝网络盈利了之后利润是怎么分配?我们其实是看不到。反过来举一个比特币的例子，我们在用比特币网络转账的时候并不是一分钱不花而是要向比特币网络去支付交易手续费。我们发现比特币网络自己是在赚钱，那比特币网络它自身就有了盈利能力之后，它会给参与网络的人去分配利润，也就是说区块链是自动化分配利润的机器。
The point of Dapp is that it's simple enough to do this and business models are simple enough, but it's particularly transparent to operate. For example, it's a piece of treasure that makes money asymmetrical information between buyers and sellers, to make middle profits. But how does the profit distribute when the network is profitable? We don't see it. By way of a bitcoin, we're using the Bitcoin network to transfer money instead of spending money to the Bitcoin network to pay transaction fees. We find that the Bitcoin network itself, after it has its own profitability, distributes profits to those involved in the network, that is to say, the district chains are machines that distribute profits autonomously.
我们传统意义上的机器是提升了生产力，比如汽车可以让你走路变得更快一点。区块链是一种提升生产关系的机器，让所有的利润分配方式都特别的公开，我们可以很简单地看到这个网络的盈利模。不同的Dapp对底层的公链要求是不一样的，这也是我们为什么要做多级侧链的原因，我们希望Dapp可以自己定义跑在什么样的底层上。因为一个去中心化交易所本质上是对延时性要求特别高，比如一个去中心化的微博可能会对数据量的存储、对底层的要求比较多。所以应该根据Dapp的类型去选择底层的链，我们aelf希望提供的是下面有参数可以定制，Dapp需要有一个什么样的环境可以定制出来。
Our conventional machine is one that increases productivity, such as cars, that can make you walk faster. Block chains are a machine that upgrades production relationships, allowing all profit distributions to be particularly open, and we can see the network’s profit models very simply. Different Dapps require different public chains at the bottom, which is why we want to do multi-layer chains, and we want Dapp to define the bottom. Because a decentralized exchange is inherently very time-consuming, for example, a decentralized microblogging may require more data volume storage and bottom-level demands. So what we want to offer is what parameters we can customize, and what kind of environment Dapp needs to customize.
六
“区块链可以让整个商业逻辑变得没有边界”
时艳强：您曾说过“未来80%的互联网平台将会被区块链所取代”，可以具体谈一下您的这个观点。很多人都将区块链的发展和互联网相比，您认为区块链和互联网有哪些相似的地方?
You once said & ldquao; the next 80% of Internet platforms will be replaced by block chains & & rdquao; you can say this in detail. Many people compare the development of block chains to the Internet.
马昊伯：区块链本质是建立在互联网上，在互联网电商没出来之前我们还有零售业，只是我们的零售业比较不发达，厂商、总代理商、123级分销商到零售店再到普通的用户。互联网电商出来之后就把这些中间环节都干掉了，提升了效率、降低了中介的利润空间。我们看到现有的大部分互联网平台都是在起到一个撮合的作用，比如淘宝在撮合买家和卖家，但是现在淘宝利润空间也特别大，似乎并没有办法让这个商业模式再进步，因为有的时候你进步是需要有竞争对手跟你竞争，你在竞争过程中不断的提升自己的效率，但是腾讯的拍拍并没有起到这样的作用，因为淘宝已经足够大了。那么淘宝现在给我们推荐的商品一定是淘宝平台自己能赚钱比较多的一个商品而不是买家真正需要的商品，在这样一个条件下如何让淘宝发展的更好、效率更高，我们应该用当年马云的逻辑来做这个事情，万达线下零售已经做这么好，在相同维度下已经无法竞争，那我换个维度和你竞争。
Maruber: The essence of the block chain is based on the Internet, and we have retail before Internet electricians come out, except for our retail industry, which is less developed, where manufacturers, general agents, and 123-grade distributors go to retail shops and then to ordinary users. Internet electricians come out and take out all these intermediates, increasing efficiency and reducing the profit margin of intermediaries. We see that most of the Internet platforms available are serving as a setup, for example, that the treasures are picking up buyers and sellers, but it seems that there is no way to make this business model any better and more efficient, because sometimes you need competitors to compete with you, and you have to use the logic of that year to improve your efficiency, but they're not doing this because the treasures are big enough.
区块链可以让整个的商业逻辑变得没有边界，像一个公司肯定有股东和非股东的区别，用户在享受淘宝的过程中并没有获得淘宝成长的红利。但是我看到了区块链把这个边界模糊了，而且任何一个商业的延伸是有边际。比如你的业务在大城市做得好，可能二三线城市做的不好，但是互联网协议层的东西是可以遍布全球。假如有一个区块链协议在二三线城市，完全可以加入到这个协议里面一起来去把这个商业落地，这是我看到区块链的价值所在，是一个新型的利润分配方式。
Block chains can make the whole business logic out of boundaries, like a company with a certain difference between shareholders and non-shareholders, and users do not get a bonus from the exploitation of treasures. But I see that they blur the boundaries and that any commercial extension is marginal. For example, your business is good in big cities, probably bad in two or three-line cities, but the Internet protocol layer can spread across the globe. If there is a block chain agreement in two or three-line cities, it could well be added to the deal to land the business, which is the value of the block chain, a new way of distributing profits.
七
“以太坊本质上要提高网络的性能”
时艳强：aelf对标以太坊和EOS，近期因为Fcoin的上币机制，再次导致以太坊拥堵，如何从技术上解决拥堵的难题?技术实施的难点在哪?围绕Fcoin上币机制，有黑客专门做刷票服务，可以通过哪些技术解决?
Aelf vs. Ether and EOS, which in the recent past has led to further congestion in Ether because of Fcoin's upper currency mechanism. What are the technical challenges of technology implementation? What are the kinds of techniques that can be used to solve the problem?
马昊伯：aelf是一个多链的结构，比如Fcoin上币的时候是十个币有十条链，那这十条链自己刷不会影响到其他的链。Fcoin的上币机制就是故意要制造话题性，并没有解决问题的动机。他把以太坊堵了那大家都会来提Fcoin，这其实是一种营销行为。用黑客刷票这对黑客的定义太浅薄了一点，因为任何一个技术人员都可以进去刷票，这个事情特别简单。要真的想去限制这种刷票的行为很简单，新的币出来之后找这种真正的以前持有币的地址，从那些币的地址再转出来，这都是真实用户。比如说一个用户是行业里边的老用户，他有自己的钱包地址，那这个钱包地址以前的交易记录可以追溯。要解决刷票问题的核心是要增加刷票的成本，当然刷票这个事情一定是不太好避免的，这更多的是一些营销上的策略而不是技术上的策略。
Mav: Aelf is a multi-chain structure, for example, when Fcoin comes up with 10 coins with 10 chains, which do not affect the other chains itself. The Fcoin upper-currency mechanism is intended to create subjectivity and has no motive for solving the problem. He shuts the house down. It's a marketing act. The hacking of a ticket is a bit too thin for a hacker, because any technician can go in, and it's a very simple matter. To really try to limit a ticket, the new currency comes out with a real address that used to hold the money, it's a real user. For example, a user is an old user in the business, he has his wallet address, and it's a record of transactions that used to go back. The central thing to solve the problem is to increase the cost of a ticket, but it's probably not very easy to avoid it, and it's more a marketing strategy than a technical one.
关于解决拥堵的问题就是性能肯定需要提升，因为以太坊的TPS只有二十多笔每秒，Fcoin上币的有人连十万个地址都有，这十万个地址得占用以太坊多长的时间。所以本质上还是要提升网络性能，只有管道口子大了之后才OK，大量的水才能流过去。
The problem of solving congestion is that performance certainly needs to be enhanced, because there are only 20 TPSs in the Etherm, and one in Fcoin's upper currency has 100,000 addresses, which take how long Ether's office is occupied. So essentially, the network is going to be upgraded, and only when the pipe is big will it be OK for a lot of water to flow.
八
时艳强：昊伯总，您作为资深的区块链行业布道者，应该接触过很多圈内人士，其中是否有您欣赏和佩服的从业者，为什么?如果昊伯总引荐两位嘉宾，您会引荐谁来做客【布洛克科技】进行分享?
Mr. Hubbard, as a senior member of the block chain industry, you should have reached out to a lot of people in your circle. Are there any of them who you admire and admire? Why?
马昊伯：我对在这个行业里坚持下来的老朋友都特别欣赏和佩服，因为整个行业从不被大家理解慢慢的变成被关注的行业，大家在行业里坚持着，坚持认为做的事情是有价值的，而且不停地让其他人了解这个行业的价值，这些老朋友让我特别地欣赏和佩服。我们自己的项目也得到了很多老朋友的支持，当时我们交易所上线时同时首发了六家，这跟我们技术的强大也有关系，有的Token被别的交易所抢了首发，但我们很好地控制了节奏。我觉得布洛克科技提供这样的渠道让大家沟通交流非常好，我可以推荐很多同学和朋友来跟大家交流。
Marub: I am particularly impressed and admired by old friends who have persisted in this industry, because the whole industry has moved from being ununderstood to being a concerned industry, where everyone has insisted on the value of what is being done and has kept others aware of the value of the industry. These old friends have made me particularly admired and admired. Our own project was supported by many old friends, who started six while we were on the line, which was related to our technological strength and to the fact that some Token were taken over by other exchanges, but we managed the rhythm very well. I think Brock technology provides a very good channel for people to communicate, and I can recommend many of our classmates and friends to talk to you.
九
时艳强：以太坊区块链核心开发人员：分片扩容解决方案可能会在2020年亮相，你对这个技术和时间节点怎么看?
So what do you think of this technology and the time node?
马昊伯：我觉得分片一定是一个很好的方向，我前面也说过，这个落地的可行性很强，但是我觉得分片不如先把具体的业务分开，比如单独的做一条去中心化交易所的链，等这个链性能达到瓶颈时候再做分片，我觉得这样挺好，以太坊分片到2020年肯定能够落地和实施。
MP: I think the split must be a good direction, as I said earlier, and the feasibility of this landing is great, but I think it would be better to separate specific operations, such as a separate chain of decentralized exchanges, and then when this chain becomes a bottleneck.
十
时艳强：Bit-Z今天宣布停止交易挖矿，滚入分红机制，是不是间接证明交易即挖矿并不能长久?您对这件事怎么看?
Time is bright: is Bit-Z's announcement today to stop trading in mining and roll into the splitting mechanism an indirect proof that the deal is not going to last? What do you think about this?
马昊伯：我之前曾对这个事情发过一条朋友圈：交易挖矿本质上是一个资产再分配的游戏，通过每天刷量花费手续费购买平台币(这里将挖矿得到的交易所代币统称为平台币)。平台将收到的80%利润空投给平台币持有人。因为存在着刷量多少左右能够得到平台币，跟持有多少平台币获得多少分红，两种博弈，平台币在二级市场的价格就尤为关键。由于早期平台币供应量稀少，在持有币就能得到分红的情况下，会有大量买盘直接购买平台币，推高价格，因为直接购买的效率是刷量产生交易费的五倍(交易手续费仅20%能换币)。当价格被推高后，购买成本增加，不如用手续费购买划算。这两种获得平台币的方式在动态博弈，最终推高了平台币价格，产生了大量交易手续费利润用于分红，最终当先入场低成本获取平台币的用户获利出逃时，大量后进入用户接盘。
Maruber: I have previously had a circle of friends about this: transactional mining is essentially a game of redistribution of assets, buying platform money by spending a daily amount of paperwork (where the exchange coins obtained from mining are referred to as platform money). 80% of the profits received by the platform go to platform money holders. Because of the amount of money that can be brushed up, and the amount of money that can be split with the amount of money held, the price of the platform money in the secondary market is particularly critical. Because of the scarcity of early platform money supply, when the price of the platform money is split, there will be a lot of direct purchase of platform currency and higher prices, because the efficiency of the direct purchase is five times that of the transaction fee (the transaction fee is only 20 per cent in exchange). When prices are pushed up, the purchase cost increases rather than the fee.
通常这个周期会发生的很迅速，在这个很短的周期内，由于交易所上的成交量都是虚假的(成交的本质是用于不同用户之间进行价值交换)，并且一个新的交易所的价值并不仅仅取决于成交量，还取决于用户量、资金沉淀数量及用户粘性，以及与项目方的议价能力(小平台项目方不会愿意花大价格)。因此在平台币(一定是有价值的，但是没那么大，肯定跟三大平台差远了)在价值虚高之后一定会崩盘。投项目的逻辑是，这个项目未来会发展的很大，而且项目的价值是随着团队做事产品落地缓慢增长的过程。平台币一定就是击鼓传花了。第一个好像也没持续多少时间，后面的这些币让我想起了btc分叉的时候。记得赵本山有一个小品，拍卖的时候
This cycle usually takes place quickly, and in this very short cycle, because the transactions on the exchange are false (the essence of the transaction is a value exchange between different users) and the value of a new exchange does not depend only on the volume of the transaction, but also on the number of users, the amount of funds deposited and the stickyness of the user, and the bargaining power of the project party (the small platform project party would not be willing to spend a large price). So, in the platform currency (which must be valuable, but not so big, it must be far from the three platforms) collapses after it is of high value. The logic of the project is that the project will evolve in the future, and the value of the project is a process that will grow slowly as the team's work falls.
A：2000
B：成交
B: Deal.
别不拿你冲进去的币当回事，有一句话，你看到的是利息，别人盯着的是你的本金。黑客想啥时候来啥时候来，特别是新平台。
Don't take the money you're in, there's one thing you're looking at: interest, you're looking at your principal. Hackers come when they want to come, especially the new platform.
我看到现在大部分的平台币的确是按照我说的发展，有的平台币可能还能坚持一两天或者三四天，大部分都是上来就崩盘。我觉得这个游戏不可持续，它建立的基础是平台币有价值，但是一个新的平台用户粘性很重要，我觉得老牌的交易所还是有一些有些沉淀和积累。
I see that most of the platform money is now exactly what I say, and some of it may last a day or two or three or four days, and most of it collapses. I think the game is not sustainable, it is based on the value of the platform currency, but it is important that a new platform user be sticky, and I think that some of the old exchanges have some sort of sedimentation and accumulation.
▼
关于aelf
aelf是一个去中心化的云计算平台，节点根据类型行划分，专业化记账节点(全节点)能够运行在服务器集群之上，提高整个区块链网络性能;“主链+多侧链”结构，有效实现资源隔离、“一链一场景”;设立代币持有人的委托票选制度，保障网络高效治理及良性发展。相对于目前的区块链系统，在全球数字资产爱好者心中，aelf被誉为对标以太坊，超越eos的下一代区块链系统。
Aelf is a decentralised cloud computing platform, with nodes (full node) able to operate above the server cluster to enhance the performance of the entire block chain network, depending on the type of line; “ main chain + multi-section chain & rdquao; structure that effectively achieves resource segregation, & & ldquao; a chain of scenes & & rdquo; and a system of commissioning for currency holders that guarantees efficient governance and benign development of the network. Compared to the current block chain system, aelf is known as the next generation chain system that goes beyond the eos.
下一代的底层公有链aelf
Next generation's bottom public chainaelf
目前可在bitfinex、binance、okex、Huobi. pro、cex、bcex、bibox、gate、kkex、bigone、otcbtc、hypex、Gopax、Radar Relay、Bancor Network、Kucoin、Vebitcoin、btcdo、cointiger、coinomi、Bithumb、coinbene上交易。
At present, transactions can be made in bitfinex, binance, okex, Huobi.pro, cex, bcex, bibox, gate, kkex, bigone, otcbtc, hypex, Gopax, Radar Relay, Bancor Network, Kucoin, Vebitcoin, btcdo, cointiger, coinomi, Bittumb, coinbene.
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